<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1516</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/17/99 8:03:17 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, December 17 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1516<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
religious traveller<BR>
canon<BR>
Re: Re Rations<BR>
7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Re: silly traveller<BR>
Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Re: Ethnic Confusions (was: Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait))<BR>
Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
Re: Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
Ethnicity<BR>
Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
Re: Canonicy of YTU<BR>
Re: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?! (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
Re: OT Suggestions<BR>
Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
Online Bible (KJV)<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Re: off to the racism<BR>
Re: guns with guns (and more guns)<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Re: Wealth Distribution UPP value<BR>
Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:16:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: religious traveller<BR>
<BR>
Jason wrote:<BR>
> The folks in charge of such things have been<BR>
> stamping<BR>
> birth certificates with a Levitical "seal" for some<BR>
> time<BR>
> now.  The "Jewish priest" hand book is available to<BR>
> whoever would read it (it has even been translated<BR>
> into<BR>
> hundreds of different languages).<BR>
<BR>
Kyle replied:<BR>
I understand there is a frummy (devout) group trying<BR>
to make some priests: they want a third temple, but<BR>
aside from the practical problems of one of Islam's<BR>
holiest sites (the dome of the Rock) being there<BR>
first, it all needs to blessed by the priests first,<BR>
etc... and such a priest has to be brought up "pure",<BR>
never touching a dead person, all that kind of stuff,<BR>
so have to be brought up in isolation. This group is<BR>
asking for cohen families to volunteer their sons to<BR>
be brought up "right" over the next twenty years...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: the PCs are transporting a "holy child" to a<BR>
world where he'll grow up to be a priest, they're told<BR>
the rules by his minders, no meat to be eaten, and so<BR>
on... along the way, the kid gets curious and looks in<BR>
the refrigerator, eats a big old steak raw...<BR>
technically, he must be "purified", taken to _another_<BR>
world, immersed in an ancient lake, etc... do they<BR>
tell, or not? it's said that "he who allows such a one<BR>
to be unclean, accursed shall he be..."<BR>
They do "clean" him, and it's a big hassle, they<BR>
don't, and all sorts of little things go wrong,<BR>
misjumps, slight leaks in the ship, fridge goes on the<BR>
blink spoiling the food, ship's computer pac-man won't work...<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:23:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: canon<BR>
<BR>
Will Hostman opined:<BR>
> Ob Trav 1: The Traveller Settings have yet to truly<BR>
> undergo the kind of<BR>
> unification that christianity has... we have 5<BR>
> official settings, all of<BR>
> which differ. What is valid in the canon of one may<BR>
> be contradictory to the<BR>
> canon of another. <BR>
<BR>
Honourable Reverend Rabbi Kyle replied:<BR>
Indeed this is so, and we of the Inquisition are<BR>
determined to stamp out the demonically-inspired<BR>
heresies by means of admonitions to righteous<BR>
behaviour, the brand, the rack, and, if need be, the<BR>
stake! When we have decided what our doctrine is, we<BR>
shall call for a crusade! The righteous shall arise to<BR>
destroy the heretics and their foulness.<BR>
One thing's sure, that T4 won't be in our bible!<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:28:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Rations<BR>
<BR>
- --- "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
> >> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> >> ObTrav: will 3I grunts still complain about their<BR>
> >> food, and will field rations still bind them up?<BR>
> <BR>
> Of Course! Said lack of excrement in the short term<BR>
> does have tactical<BR>
> advantages. It's a design FEATURE of field rations,<BR>
> not a bug!<BR>
> <BR>
well it sure as hell used to bug me!<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:43:17 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
Kristian Miller writes:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  I once had a Traveller player who planned to have his character<BR>
>buy a "book" of the "Seven Wonders of the Known Universe" and be an<BR>
>interstellar tourist.<BR>
 <BR>
So what would be the 7 Wonders of Charted Space? Any ideas? Apart from the<BR>
unfinished ringworld in the Vargr Extents I can't think of any canonical<BR>
feature that merits inclusion on a list of the seven most spectacular<BR>
sights of the known universe.<BR>
<BR>
Also, given that with jump-6 as the top speed, a grand tour of the 7 Wonders<BR>
of Charted Space would propably take most of a decade, how about a somewhat<BR>
smaller list, like the 7 Wonders of the Spinward Marches, or possibly the 7<BR>
Wonders of the Domain of Deneb?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:46:43 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: silly traveller<BR>
<BR>
"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
>> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>> 6. the Explosive Decompression Long Jump<BR>
><BR>
>Kyle has just created the first Traveller _mustering out table_ with a<BR>
>chance of death. Congratulations!<BR>
<BR>
That was my first thought<BR>
<BR>
Then I thought a slice of Terran tree with a universal airlock coupling.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
When rolling for survival, if the survival roll is made exactly, roll 1d3[1]:<BR>
<BR>
 1. lose leg <BR>
<BR>
 2. lose hand<BR>
<BR>
 3. lose eye<BR>
<BR>
[1] non-T4 players can roll 1d6 on the following table:<BR>
<BR>
 1-2. lose leg <BR>
<BR>
 3-4. lose hand<BR>
<BR>
 5-6. lose eye<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:15:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In the supplements I used to have, the Zhodani were always drawn as though<BR>
> their ancestors had come from Mongo.  That sort of look can come from<BR>
> Semitic, East Indian, and Asian ancestry although it really has its roots in<BR>
> the demonization of the Japanese and Chinese earlier in this century and<BR>
> late in the previous one.<BR>
<BR>
And at risk of being called a traitor to my race (never mind which<BR>
one), I always thought that Ming the Merciless and The Insidious Dr. Fu<BR>
Manchu looked kinda neat. <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: One generation's "scare figures" are likely to be considered<BR>
*attractive* by their (several generations removed) descendants.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:05:01 -0600<BR>
From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
Does Lucans Ego count?<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:21:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic Confusions (was: Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> But here, living in California, I have had little old ladies walk past three<BR>
> or four legitimate Latina girls to earnestly and insistently question me in<BR>
> Spanish and refuse adamantly to believe that I can't understand them.<BR>
><BR>
> I've learned that the only way to get rid of them is to say, insistently,<BR>
> "Supeingo ga wakarimasen yo, obaasan!" over and over and over.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, now you *have* to tell us what that means! :-)<BR>
<BR>
> My stepsister's Arab boyfriends used to chase me and when I was in Greece,<BR>
> people assumed I was a native, as well.<BR>
<BR>
I have it on good authority that young arab males will chase *any*<BR>
non-arab female available. Something about you all being "shameless". :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:28:39 EST<BR>
From: Diespamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
<BR>
Greetings:<BR>
<BR>
Sorry to barge in on the paintball debate...but could Paul S. of Cargonaut <BR>
please contact Fred Kiesche (Diespamer@aol.com)?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks...and now back to the debate...<BR>
<BR>
Fred Kiesche<BR>
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:10:45 +0000<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: Re: Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry to barge in on the paintball debate...but could Paul S. of Cargonaut<BR>
>please contact Fred Kiesche (Diespamer@aol.com)?<BR>
<BR>
>Thanks...and now back to the debate...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
He's currently on holidays in Europe with his family, so it could be a<BR>
while before he can answer.  I had hoped to be able to see him at Gatwick<BR>
but work commitments prevented that sadly.  :-(<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
To the best of my knowledge he had posted some of the Cargonaut material<BR>
but not all of it before he left.  (I think he said he was going in<BR>
chronological order of orders - as it were.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hope that helps.<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:20:02 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Ethnicity<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/17/99 7:07:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< just don't call an<BR>
 eskimo or aleut an "indian".... >><BR>
<BR>
Unless, of course, that title is attached to a scholarship letter or check, <BR>
in which case they [just like everyone] are more than willing 'to go along to <BR>
get along'<BR>
<BR>
I am going to weigh in. In my travels [one year in Europe, two in Asia] I <BR>
have found that America cries the most about racism and not respecting <BR>
people's whatever, but in Asia they all know each other's ethnic background <BR>
[while after two years I could make a good guess on sight], and they mostly <BR>
connect that first look to their entire feelings about that person, usually <BR>
disdain or hate, and they have no problem sharing those feelings, no matter <BR>
how rude.<BR>
In Germany the police are pretty chilled, but there was some old kaserns <BR>
converted into refugee [Turks in one, Black Africans in the other] housing <BR>
near some US housing areas, and there was sometimes some trouble with theft <BR>
or desire for mating with a blonde family member wife via a form of group <BR>
stalking. The nice guy German police would quickly whip out 3 or 4 cell <BR>
Maglites to do some slapping with, based only on race. <BR>
I much prefer the American attitude towards race, even with the regular TV <BR>
breast beatings and rallies [unless, of course, they preempt Scooby-Doo]. <BR>
"Hey, you are an Asian, are you in one of those gangs? No? Okay." is much <BR>
prefered to "You invaded my nation X ^x years ago, I hate you, you are sub <BR>
human" in my book.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:35:43 +0000<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Multiple Choice:<BR>
>A. The second millenium starts at 00:00:00 Jan 1, 2000<BR>
>B. The second millenium starts at 00:00:00 Jan 1, 2001<BR>
>C. None of the above.<BR>
<BR>
>The correct answer is *C*.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
'specially if you're being retentive and note that it should be<BR>
'millennium'.<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
Hey, I'm not picking on you.  I've just got nothing better to do - and I'm<BR>
already off the caffeine!  (We've just got a fascinating (!) book in the<BR>
library called 'Caffeine'.  It tells you how much there is in different<BR>
drinks, chocolates, foods, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:46:48 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Canonicy of YTU<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Just keep in mind the fact that cosmic strings produce gravity effects<BR>
> as if they were made of something denser than your average black hole.<BR>
> Get too close and things get ugly. <BR>
<BR>
Yes, but since they're so small, the gravity effects are still hard to<BR>
notice, unless you're _looking_ for it. They could interpenetrate you and<BR>
you wouldn't notice a thing, because at most they'd snack off a few atoms<BR>
into their gravity well. Several orders of magnitude greater numbers of<BR>
atoms spontaneously fission in your body during the same time frame.<BR>
<BR>
On a cosmic string level, neutronium is mostly empty space...<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:54:05 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?! (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Robert Prior wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Terry types out:<BR>
> > >Columbine (sp?): the preps were outsiders and killed member<BR>
> > >of groups from which they were either excluded or feared, the popular<BR>
> > >athletes and the born again Christians.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >According to the recently reviewed video tapes the two perps made prior to<BR>
> >generally carrying cranky, they didn't really target anyone in specific, as<BR>
> >the newsies put forth, they were out to get everyone.  Equal opportunity<BR>
> >psychos it seems.<BR>
> <BR>
> Won't stop the stories, though. A born-again Christian who died for her<BR>
> faith makes such inspirational material (and teh book is selling quite<BR>
> nicely, AFAIK).<BR>
<BR>
Especially when that is'nt true. In point of fact, the 'girl who<BR>
died for her faith'; the one who stared them down, _lived_. What she said<BR>
was attributed to another girl who died, in the mass media feeding frenzy<BR>
during the event.<BR>
<BR>
But of course, it's makes for a much more profitable story.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:58:07 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Suggestions<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > First, go get FinderPop. The Mac has much more customizable context menus<BR>
> > (like right clicking in Windows), but you have to press the control key<BR>
> > when you click.<BR>
> <BR>
> The things I learn on this list. I must have missed that it the (*old*)<BR>
> manual I have.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well it's a system 8+ thang, which if you're using '030's and '020's you<BR>
can't play with. :-/ <BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:05:37 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>         Hi, Leonard....<BR>
>         Along the same lines was remarked that the tent it was kept in on<BR>
> the road was a camel-hair tent-like arrangement...  add a warm desert wind<BR>
> and that structure would have been the next best thing to a Van DeGraff<BR>
> generator.  <BR>
<BR>
So it, what, you touch it and you're rendered in 3D...no, no, wait that<BR>
would be a JESSE DeGraff generator. Sorry, my bad!<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:10:26 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Online Bible (KJV)<BR>
<BR>
Hey Leonard, where did you get that downloadable bible? What format is it<BR>
in?  I might find it a handy reference...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:16:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Hans Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
> So what would be the 7 Wonders of Charted Space? Any ideas? Apart from the<BR>
> unfinished ringworld in the Vargr Extents I can't think of any canonical<BR>
> feature that merits inclusion on a list of the seven most spectacular<BR>
> sights of the known universe.<BR>
<BR>
Nominations:<BR>
<BR>
Earth is on the list, of course.  The rosettes in Gateway Quadrant (canon or<BR>
not).  The royal palace.  Is there a black hole in known space?   A<BR>
spectacular quasar?  The Empress Wave, distance dependent on milieu,<BR>
naturally.  And a little trinket shop on a side street on Regina... but that<BR>
won't be on most lists, I guess ;-)<BR>
<BR>
 > Also, given that with jump-6 as the top speed, a grand tour of the 7<BR>
Wonders<BR>
> of Charted Space would propably take most of a decade, how about a<BR>
somewhat<BR>
> smaller list, like the 7 Wonders of the Spinward Marches, or possibly the<BR>
7<BR>
> Wonders of the Domain of Deneb?<BR>
<BR>
I should hope it would take the better part of a lifetime to see them all.<BR>
If any rich brat could see them all in a year or two they would not be<BR>
Wonders.<BR>
<BR>
- -Crusty<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:18:48 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: off to the racism<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> I'm always confused by caucasians' inability to tell<BR>
> one asian race from another: usually, I get it about<BR>
> right (though some chinese look korean). <BR>
<BR>
Well, if you look at the human face, the difference <BR>
from person to person in really, really small. Frankly, it's<BR>
amazing that we can diffeentiate faces at all - but it's<BR>
obviously such a useful trait that our eyes and brains have<BR>
evolved very specific mechanisms to differentiate them.<BR>
That partly why people tend to see faces in all sorts of <BR>
things, like potatoes and scrambled eggs - the brain is <BR>
hard-wired to look for "face-shaped" things.<BR>
<BR>
To add to this, people learn to tell faces apart through <BR>
conditioning. If all you see most of your life are<BR>
"white" faces, then the first time you see a pair of,<BR>
say, Chinese people, they'll look very similar to each <BR>
other because you're used to faces that fall within a totally<BR>
different (though still very narrow) set of parameters.<BR>
<BR>
White people all look alike to asian people who have never<BR>
seen one. To quote a co-worker of my father, "all you <BR>
white people look alike to me!". <BR>
<BR>
Also, most north americans have a very small sample size of<BR>
non-white faces to learn from with regard to differentiating<BR>
the faces of different races. I spent 2 weeks in Taiwan once<BR>
and I could tell Taiwanese people apart a _lot_ better after<BR>
that. There are a fair number of Vietnamese people in univerity<BR>
and aside from learnng that most male Vietnamese people are named<BR>
"Tran" as I met more of them I could tell them apart more easily.<BR>
(I grew up in a pretty white-bread town for what it's worth).<BR>
<BR>
(And I'm not trying to racist - I swear that almost every Vietnamese <BR>
guy had "Tran" in his name somewhere. It was wierd).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, to add to the mix, you have people of one ethnic racial<BR>
category who might live (for generations) in a different geographic<BR>
region - I heard there were a lot of ethnic Chinese in Indonesia<BR>
during the recent violence there who were discriminated against by the <BR>
Indonesians for being "outsider", somehow ignoring the fact that they<BR>
had been there for a few generations. Taiwan is a mix of ethnic Chinese<BR>
and ethnic Taiwanese (and probably some more). There are ethnic Chinese<BR>
living in Japan and Koran, speaking and living the native culture, but<BR>
who, to the locals, don't look Japanese (or Korean).<BR>
<BR>
And finally, as someone else noted, you get the mutts. While you might<BR>
be able to tell "pure-blood" Irish from "pure-blood" Scottish, most<BR>
of the people of British descent you'll meet in Canada have probably<BR>
a dozen of each in their family tree. And English and in my case, Hungarian.<BR>
Distinctive group facial features get blurred or lost.<BR>
<BR>
So, anyway, go easy on the rednecks who couldn't tell some from<BR>
Korea from someone from Pakistan. They just don't know any better. ;)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Most people in the 3I would identify people based on<BR>
minor human race characteristics. Tall people would get asked<BR>
of they were a member of such-and-such race, hairy people would<BR>
be some other, people with wide noses something else, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this drives the Solomani nuts because they have more<BR>
visual diversity on their one planet than the rest of the 3I<BR>
combined probably. There's probably a minor human races that looks<BR>
like a sterotypical "black person" (I refuse to use African-American<BR>
and such because not everyone in Africa is black, geez), the existance<BR>
of whom drives every black person on Terra to their wit's end.<BR>
<BR>
Terran Tourist: Did you immigrate here recently?<BR>
Michael Jordan's Great^n-Grandson: Huh?<BR>
Tourist: From Planet Q? Where your race is from?<BR>
Grandson: I'm from Chicago! Get the hell off my planet!<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:25:33 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: guns with guns (and more guns)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Anyway, the "criminals will have guns anyway" argument doesn't<BR>
> > hold with me. Maybe it's a Canadian thing.<BR>
> <BR>
> Alas, there's actual data showing that it *is* true, at least in the<BR>
> US. In New York in the 50s and early 60s, it was hard enough for<BR>
> teenagers to get guns that they *made* them. The result was called a<BR>
> "zip gun". And they worked well enough.<BR>
<BR>
Hm, well, that was then. Anyway, yes, there's like different rates of<BR>
just about everything up here in Canada.<BR>
<BR>
> Likewise there have been incidents of similar weapons being made *in<BR>
> prison*.<BR>
<BR>
Hm. Maybe the US should stop incarcerating so many people.<BR>
<BR>
There are those of us (I'll probably be labelled a liberal by some)<BR>
who don't think that crime is not caused by gun ownership or the lack<BR>
thereof but by poverty and excessive social disparity. Correlation<BR>
is not causation, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I should probably stop this whole thread for my part right about now<BR>
before it degrades into a bigger off-topic flame fest than it already <BR>
is. I understand what you're saying Leonard, but I don't interpret the<BR>
stats the same way you seem do.<BR>
<BR>
> I think your problem is that they left off the *first* half of the<BR>
> statement:<BR>
> <BR>
> "If they want them badly enough, criminals will have guns anyway."<BR>
> <BR>
> I guess Canadian criminals don't want them badly enough. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Fine by me. :) Most Canadian criminals seem more interested in<BR>
political office anyways. <ba-dum-pa!><BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:45:01 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/17/99 7:45:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> So what would be the 7 Wonders of Charted Space? Any ideas? Apart from the<BR>
>  unfinished ringworld in the Vargr Extents I can't think of any canonical<BR>
>  feature that merits inclusion on a list of the seven most spectacular<BR>
>  sights of the known universe.<BR>
<BR>
Muan Gwi Starport.  (Thanks, Jim!)  No, it's not canonical.  Yet.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:51:07 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Wealth Distribution UPP value<BR>
<BR>
One way to do this would be to generalize the old "20% of the people have<BR>
80% of the wealth" statistic.  Each level of the Wealth Dist UPP value<BR>
would be a 5% jump.  0 would mean that a very few people (less than 2.5%) <BR>
owned virtually everything (more than 97.5%).  10 would mean that 50% of<BR>
the people controlled 50% of the wealth, a very egalitarian society in<BR>
socio-ecomonic terms.  Present day earth is about a 4, IIRC. The letter<BR>
designations could be reserved for special things such as "no personal<BR>
ownership" or "continuous flux in wealth distribution (gift economy?)". <BR>
<BR>
The basic idea is that you line everybody up in order of wealth and put<BR>
down a marker at each increase of 10% in wealth, then determine where the<BR>
point of equilibrium is (ie. where percent of people equals 100 minus<BR>
percent of wealth).  If I'm thiking straight (and it's early, so no<BR>
guarantee) this should give you a basic measure of the non-linearity of <BR>
your wealth distribution curve...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:54:11 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Personally I think that "Thunder Child" is the most stiurring song, as well<BR>
as having some great assonance<BR>
<BR>
"Lashing ropes and smashing timbers<BR>
Flashing heat-rays pierced the deck<BR>
Dashing hopes for our deliveance<BR>
As we watched the sinking wreck"<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
That differs from my take on the fate of the _Thunder Child_.<BR>
<BR>
If I remember Wells' book correctly, _Thunder Child_ sank with all hands<BR>
while ramming (and destroying) a martian war machine that was moments<BR>
away from slaughtering boatloads of English civilians who were attempting<BR>
to flee across the channel. A moment of heroic defiance to the end,<BR>
lives nobly sacrificed for the (successful) protection of the innocent.<BR>
<BR>
I saw it as more inspirational, than "dashing hopes".<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1516<BR>
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